The Pope Comes To America And Criticizes How We Roll *Open Thread* UPDATED


Update at the end.

Let me say up front that I am not a Catholic. I was reared High Church Episcopalian, though, so I understand a lot about having a Primate overseeing the Faithful (Archbishop of Canterbury for Episcopalians). Unlike Catholics, though, the Archbishop is not considered infallible on Church Matters. And if the Pope stayed primarily on Church Matters, that would be one thing. But that is not the case with Pope Francis as he makes his first visit to the United States.

Still, not being Catholic, I am a tad hesitant to speak out about some of the things the Pope is saying. So I will leave it to a couple of people who ARE Catholics and have something to say about his focus on politics rather than religion during this visit.

First up is Bill O’Reilly. Now, I admit, I rarely watch O’Reilly. I find him to be a bit too pompous and dismissive for my tastes. But I did catch the beginning of his show Wednesday night, and this is what he had to say about Pope Francis:

Now, I am all for “protecting the helpless,” but demonizing an economic system that has lifted up literally millions and millions of people not just in the United States, but around the Globe, is a bridge too far. First of all, he is not an economist, he is a Jesuit priest-turned-Pope. Second of all, he comes from a country, Argentina, which previously labored under a dictatorship and is more Socialist than not. And he has the audacity to call out American Capitalism?? Wow.

I never cease to be amazed by the erroneous mindset about money by Socialists. That is this: there is a finite amount of money, and if someone is rich, they are TAKING money from the poor. That is not how it works. There will be more on the Pope’s Economic position below.

But I digress. Yes, the Pope seems to have “gently” challenged Obama on a few issues, but his focus Wednesday, and presumably today when he speaks before Congress, is on not just “climate change,” but Capitalism.

O’Reilly makes a great point about abortion, especially that 177 Democrats voted the way they did on infants who live after an abortion attempt. How that is NOT infanticide is just beyond me. It is unethical, immoral, and flies in the face of the Hippocratic Oath, in my opinion.

Next up is Judge Andrew Napolitano who had an Op-Ed today in the Washington Times in advance of the Pope’s Address to Congress. To Napolitano’s Op-Ed and his take on Pope Francis:

[…] Comes now Pope Francis to use moral relativism to take the Church in two dangerous directions. The first is an assault on the family, and the second is an assault on the free market — two favorite political targets of the left.

In the past month, without consulting his fellow bishops, the pope has weakened the sacrament of matrimony by making annulments easier to obtain. The Church cannot grant divorces because Our Lord used his own words to declare valid marriages indissoluble. But it does grant annulments.


It gets worse.

The Church has taught for 400 years that abortion is murder. Because the victim of an abortion is always innocent, helpless and uniquely under the control of the mother, abortion removes the participants from access to the sacraments. Until now. Last week, Pope Francis, without consulting his fellow bishops, ordered that any priest may return those who have killed a baby in a womb to the communion of the faithful. He said he did this because he was moved by the anguished cries of mothers contemplating the murder of their babies.

It is surprising that the Pope has yet to mention this issue more forcefully, especially in light of the recent Planned Parenthood revelations, and the recent vote by 177 Democrats to essentially support Infanticide. Included in that 177 would be Minority Leader, Nancy Pelosi, herself a Catholic. Uh, yeah…

Back to Napolitano:

I doubt he will defend these decisions before Congress. He will, instead, assault the free market, which he blames for poverty, pollution and the mass migrations into Europe away from worn-torn areas in the Middle East.

In his papal exhortation on capitalism, Pope Francis spectacularly failed to appreciate the benefits of capitalism to the health, wealth and safety of the poor. Instead, he has reworked the Peronism of his youth to advocate government-mandated redistribution of wealth and to condemn those who work hard, employ others and achieve wealth — even when they give some of that wealth to the Church.

To that point, I recommend this interview with Judge Napolitano who highlights the Pope’s world view of Marxism and communism-with-a-small-c:

Holy smokes. What an interview, wasn’t it? Sure, some of it may have been in the Polity Weeds for some of us, but his general assessment of the Pope and his economic stance was powerful.

Napolitano concludes his Op-Ed with these words:

[…] The pope probably also will tell Congress that the world is an inherently unhealthy place because of human work. He will embrace the highly questionable green science of those who want the government to tell us how to live, outside our homes and inside — more Thomas Piketty than St. Thomas Aquinas.

The pope has seriously disappointed those who believe the Roman Catholic Church preserves and teaches the Truth. The Truth is Christ risen and unity with Him. It is not a debate about the minimum wage or air conditioning.

Pope Francis is popular on the world stage, and the crowds love him. But if he fails in his basic duties as the pope, if his concern is more for secular than sacred, if he aids the political agenda of the atheistic left, he is a false prophet leading his flock to a dangerous place, where there is more central planning and less personal liberty. […] (Click here to read the rest.)

WOW, those are some strong words, are they not? I understand that many people are enthralled with this Pope, but it is also important that there are those like Napolitano who look esriously and critically at the statements made by the Pontiff.

At least that’s what I think. How about you? This is an Open Thread.

Update: In all fairness to the Pope, Breitbart had this take on the Pope’s statements on Capitalism, “In Address To Congress, Pope Praises American Capitalism.”

I don’t think I would go as far as the author of that piece did. I think he cherry-picked a bit. But you can decide for yourselves. Here is the complete text of the Pope’s speech courtesy of McClatchy, though this relates particularly to work:

[…] It goes without saying that part of this great effort is the creation and distribution of wealth. The right use of natural resources, the proper application of technology and the harnessing of the spirit of enterprise are essential elements of an economy which seeks to be modern, inclusive and sustainable. “Business is a noble vocation, directed to producing wealth and improving the world. It can be a fruitful source of prosperity for the area in which it operates, especially if it sees the creation of jobs as an essential part of its service to the common good” (Laudato Si’, 129). This common good also includes the earth, a central theme of the encyclical which I recently wrote in order to “enter into dialogue with all people about our common home” (ibid., 3). “We need a conversation which includes everyone, since the environmental challenge we are undergoing, and its human roots, concern and affect us all” (ibid., 14. […] (Click here to read the rest.)

Make of it what you will, but when I see, “wealth redistribution,” it does not conjure up CAPITALISM. But that’s just me…


Tags: , , , ,

87 Responses to “The Pope Comes To America And Criticizes How We Roll *Open Thread* UPDATED”

  1. helenk3 Says:

    ever notice that in most Catholic countries there are only two classes, the rich and the serfs?
    Yes I was raised Catholic and being in foster homes I got to see a lot of hypocrisy. There is a lot of good teaching in the Church but there is a lot to be questioned. This pope does seem to be more interested the secular then the religious

    • mcnorman Says:

      I feel for the man. He is a man who lived most of his life under a tryannical regime. He has been shaped by those that he served. It is understandable that he would think this way.

      I was raised in a very strict Catholic home. I also feel the way that you do helen. Two classes…those that have and those that do not with a boatload of hypocrisy sandwiched inbetween. It’s so bad now in Mexico that the priests are at times more beholden to the cartels that sustain the villages than the church. The church imho has long forgotten to teach one how to fish so that they will not starve.

      • kenoshamarge Says:

        The church is often responsible for insisting, as this Pope seems to be doing, that someone else give the people a fish. So it goes with socialism within and without the church.

        • mcnorman Says:

          Exactly. Even as a third grader in class i used to think of these arguments. I spent many years in Mexico and truly never could understand the church’s tacit behavior.

      • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

        Another Catholic friend of mine on Facebook just shared the same sentiment abt “teaching a man to fish.”

        And I appreciate that this Pope grew up under a tyrannical system. I completely get that would shape his world view.

  2. helenk3 Says:

    please do not let this be forgotten or swept under the rug.
    trial for men accused of murdering Brian Terry underway

    • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

      YES – thank you for mentioning this. Suzy commented the other day that it was incredible that this trial is JUST starting. It is because the US Government has STONEWALLED on this so much lest it highlight how terrible was their Gunwalking operation…

  3. foxyladi14 Says:

    Are you watching the Pope address Congress? I am.
    Are you checking how many Dems applaud, when he says. The Church opposes Abortion? 🙂

  4. Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

    And now it seems he is pushing for us to have open borders. Am I hearing that right?

    • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

      We are not FEARFUL OF FOREIGNERS – we don’t want people to break the law to come in and to come in the RIGHT way. And we don’t want to throw open the door to refugees who are unvetted, and who are basically skipping the process. As Fiorina said, those seeking asylum are thoroughly vetted and SHOULD be. Those seeking economic improvement do not get to skip the process, or shouldn’t be able to do so.

    • mcnorman Says:

      Yeah, they are “pilgrims” not law breakers.

  5. Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

    I think it is clear what this Federalist writer thinks of Pope Francis:

  6. helenk3 Says:

    as usual VDH nails it

  7. GinaR Says:

    Let me preface my comments by saying I’m not a Catholic, so I have a very different view of the Pope. I was raised, and consider myself to be, Jewish. Our rabbis are spiritual guides; there’s only one being who represents God and that’s God him/herself. So, personally, I see the Pope as a man who rose up in the ranks of the priesthood until he was chosen for the highest position. Still a man, with his own thoughts, ideas, and beliefs, some of which appear to be in contradiction to years of religious teachings. I don’t consider him infallible in the religious arena and certainly not in the political arena. With all that being said, I find his criticisms of this country to be a reflection of his leftist/progressive/Marxist/socialist narrow-minded beliefs. I am not one of those enthralled with this man; in fact, I find him to be somewhat dangerous when he spouts his political opinions.

    I particularly find appalling his reason for allowing women who’ve had abortions to receive communion. Now, I’m the first to admit I don’t know much about communion or sacraments or any of that. What I find appalling is his reason for changing policy: “He said he did this because he was moved by the anguished cries of mothers contemplating the murder of their babies.” My question is, what about the anguished cries of the babies being ripped apart in their mothers’ wombs?

    From what I understand, the Pope is the final word for Catholics as regards their spiritual life, that is, their bond with God. I would like the Pope to stay out of politics; his opinions – from climate change/global warming (also known by cc/gw “skeptics” as weather) to illegal immigration to capitalism – are dangerous.

    Rant over.

    • helenk3 Says:

      when my mother was dying the priest would not give her the last rites because she was divorced and remarried. I never forgot that. some times man does more harm in God’s name then he does good.
      Many things have changed in the Catholic Church since then, many for the better.
      As far as forgiving woman who have had an abortion, depending on the reason and the real regret and sorrow, I do not have a problem with it. They will answer to God in the end.
      One the best signs I ever read was

      A church is not a museum for saints
      it is
      A hospital for sinners

      • GinaR Says:

        I don’t have an issue with forgiving women who’ve had abortions, I have an issue with not also recognizing the rights of the babies who’ve been killed. That’s the point I was trying to make.

        And it’s sad that your mother was denied what she needed at the end of her life because she divorced. As a non-Catholic, I’ve always found disconcerting the concept of the priest as being the link to God, and therefore having the right to deny any human being the comfort of God. You’re right, man sometimes does more harm than good in God’s name.

        I like that sign!

        • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

          And Helen, I, too, am sorry abt that for your mother. That must have been painful indeed…

          Good point abt churches. We are all flawed, and we all fall short. That is the human condition, I’m afraid. Still, Church Doctrine can also fall short. The thing abt churches is that, as I like to say, they are filled with people, and that goes for the decision-makers, too! 🙂

    • kenoshamarge Says:

      I am a Catholic and I am very disappointed in this Pope. I am not a fan. Funny how the Dems that preach “Separation of Church and State” continually use his liberals rhetoric to make their point.

      One of the problems I have always had with my church is the idea that any “man” is God’s voice. Looking back through history at some of, many of, the Popes I think God must have been outraged at what his “voice” was saying. Not to mention doing.

      I have no use for this Pope.

      • GinaR Says:

        I think that’s what has always bothered me about the Catholic church, Marge, and that is that a man – be he priest or pope – is God’s voice. And I agree, I think God must be outraged at what’s been said and done in his name throughout history.

      • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

        GREAT cartoon as always, Marge. That sums it up well.

        I tried to like this Pope, and after every pronouncement that rang problematic to me, I tried again to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he has been quite clear on where he stands now…

        • kenoshamarge Says:

          I was open to being supportive of this Pope. He had to earn my dislike. And he did.

        • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

          I totally appreciate that, Marge.

          A friend who is Catholic put up the Pope’s entire speech on Facebook. I gotta say, I did hear what I thought I was hearing. WOW. He would give a compliment with one hand, then slap us with the other. It gives new meaning to, “don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.” Good grief.

    • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

      Thank you for your comment, Gina. You can rant on any time!

      It is astonishing to me that the Pope’s speech to our Congress was so political. That he gave it to our Congress enables all of us, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, to weigh in on what he said. So, yeah, his Marxist/Socialist/open border/climate change rhetoric does have an impact on all of us to varying degrees.

      I wonder who invited him to speak to the entire Congress anyway. I mean, State leaders come to our country ALL the time, and they are not given access to the Congress, thus US, on the same level. I get that the Pope is the leader of a billion Catholics worldwide, and if he had kept his remarks to religion, that would have been one thing. But he didn’t. And that I find troubling.

      I think Napolitano nailed it when he said this Pope’s rhetoric emboldens the atheistic Left in this country (or words to that effect). It is mind boggling consider their constant attacks on religion that THEY are the ones with whom he has thrown his lot. No doubt it is his upbringing.

      As for his recent pronouncements, Helen raises a good point. I agree that the infants that were ripped from their mothers’ wombs never got that chance, but that is the mercy, the reconciliation, the forgiveness that the Church SHOULD offer.

      That said, Napolitano points out that the big problem with these recent pronouncements (on this, annulment, and other issues) was that the Pope did so unilaterally without consulting his Bishops (gee – who does THAT sound like?!). He changed major Church Doctrine as a result, and that is a big deal, even if one agrees with the changes.

      Yeah, my biggest problem with this Pope is how much he has weighed in against how our country operates, ignoring how Capitalism really works (if he even understands that), and how much good it has done both here and abroad, never mind his implications on illegal immigrants and our borders. I don’t really cotton to giving a leader the platform to talk smack abt us when we invited him here and rolled out the carpet for him, no matter how flowery is his language…

    • mcnorman Says:

      I have to wonder what the Pope would have said if he had witnessed what I had back in the 80s when I worked for a reproductive facility (yup, that’s the nice label for what they did)…

      A woman came in for her 13th abortion. Yes, 13th. She said she didn’t approve of contraception. I think her spouse did not and that was the problem. Anyhow, after her procedure, she stood over the specimen container and recited the prayers of a baptismal.

      I was stunned. I had no words.

      • kenoshamarge Says:

        What words could there possibly be for such brutality and hypocrisy.

        • mcnorman Says:

          There are none Kenoshamarge. I was beside myself for many days after. This was not by far the most bizarre behavior that i witnessed either.

          • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

            How could you not be, mcnorman? I mean, really – it is difficult to wrap one’s mind around that.

            And very disturbing that this wasn’t the most bizarre thing you saw…

      • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

        I am literally shaking my head in disbelief. Indeed – there are no words…

        • mcnorman Says:

          Really, I was stunned. Actually, the event is as vivid today in my mind as it was then. Nothing in my psych training could have prepared me for that.

          • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

            I can understand that abt your training. For most people, something like that would never even enter your mind, so how could anyone predict it? Holy smokes…

            • mcnorman Says:

              You can’t. I was horrified. 13 times this woman had terminated a life. Yet, she had the temerity to baptize each specimen. How is that rationalized? The logic escaped me. Then again, so does the logc of the insane.

  8. Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

    And since abortion has been mentioned, Legal Insurrection has this piece on Carly Fiorina’s ad on the videotapes and the attacks on her. I warn you, the ad itself is very, very hard to watch:

    • GinaR Says:

      That was the first time I’d seen the pictures of the baby, just couldn’t do it before this. So so heartbreaking. There will be those who will say that baby was not an aborted baby but one that was born early from a miscarriage. What they aren’t understanding is that while that may be true, it is representative of babies at that age who are the result of live abortions. Seeing this is even harder, I think, for those of us who would have given anything to be able to have a child but couldn’t. Breaks my heart. How 177 members of congress could vote to allow a child born alive to just lay in a bucket or on a cold metal table and die, without comfort or care, absolutely boggles the mind. They are soul-less. Talk about forgiveness…I’ll leave it to God to forgive them, I cannot.

      • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

        Me too, Gina. I just couldn’t bear to watch them before, and when I watched this, I was in tears. It is horrifying, just horrifying. I cannot imagine seeing that infant there and not wanting to hold it, comfort it, and HELP it. It just simply does not compute that ANYONE could treat it as just a commodity. That is a depravity I am disgusted to know exists in this country, and is supported by the other party.

        I was thinking abt all this the other day, and how painful it is to see things like this given how much I would have loved to have a child of my own (ovarian cancer made that impossible). That others would treat these gifts with such unbelievably callous disregard makes me ill…

  9. kenoshamarge Says:

    The Pope’s visit without capitalism

  10. kenoshamarge Says:

    Trump’s Fox News Boycott His Latest Publicity Stunt?

    • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

      This would surprise me not one bit. He knows he is now stagnant in the polls, and that people like Fiorina are moving up. I guarantee you, HER appearance in Charleston was packed. So, yeah, that would not surprise me one bit.

      So, a friend shared a disturbing Breitbart article abt Rubio and his Amnesty plan. If this is true, and those insiders quoted in it are accurate, it is disturbing indeed, and I will have to remove him from my list:

      • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

        I should add, what this article claims is not what Rubio has stated. And one of the complaints seems to be what he says in English compared to what he says in Spanish. Time for him to clear this up once and for all, as my friend noted who provided the link.

    • GinaR Says:

      And it’s not as if Fox only “bashes” Trump (if you define bringing up his lack of policies and his incessant rudeness and personal attacks on other candidates as bashing). They also bring up the lack in other candidates as well.

      I think Trump will do and say anything to stay at the forefront of the media. And what does he expect to happen when he says such things about Megyn Kelley and others at Fox, they’ll roll over and beg his forgiveness? Of course he still likes Hannity, Hannity is all about Trump!

      • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

        No kidding, huh? It is just that none of the other candidates stamp their feet and throw hissy fits when they are actually questioned abt their policies or things they say. Just Trump.

  11. helenk3 Says:

    per assad advisor—-Russian and US reach tacit agreement on ending Syrian war

  12. helenk3 Says:


    • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

      Oh, wow, Helen – that IS interesting. And it is good to know that we are not the only ones who are not amused by this tact he is taking. Thanks for this!

  13. Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

    Now, I would take this with a grain of salt because this is the same reporter who did such a crappy job covering the Fiorina event this week. Still, interesting headline: “Trump Rally Lets Down Entrepreneurs; Black business owners expecting advice in North Charleston hear him bash foes instead.” (

    Unfortunate for those who thought they were going to learn something…

    • kenoshamarge Says:

      If his supporters would take a deep breath, step back and listen, really listen to what he says they might learn a few things about the man they defend so passionately. He’s a fraud and a fake. He has no plan. He just has a big mouth and a giant ego.

      The problem is that once they have committed so fervently and have attacked others so viciously, they have to keep on or back down and admit they were wrong. Few people are willing to do that.

      • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

        Absolutely right, Marge. Again, it reminds me so much of Obama supporters.

      • helenk3 Says:

        I commented yesterday on another blog when someone asked me if I was mad at Trump
        to me Trump is the other side of the coin from backtrack. the promise them anything and give them nothing candidate.
        Listen to the words of the song Charlie Brown and tell me that is not trump. I truly have never heard a more perfect song for someone like trump

        • helenk3 Says:

          forgot one line

          count how many times he says I in any speech

        • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

          Exactly, Helen – it isn’t a matter of being “mad” at him. It has nothing to do with that. He is, as you said, basically Obama in how he operates. It is how he conducts himself, and his character. THAT is the problem.

          Interesting how people try to frame things, isn’t it?

  14. kenoshamarge Says:

    Just because my wonderful Mother-in-law, the one who had the bypass just days before I did, sent me this and because I need to lighten up from time to time or I’ll explode.

  15. helenk3 Says:

    during the Pope’s visit the senate did this

    wonder how many of them get kickbacks from the human chop shop

    • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

      Good grief. I am VERY disappointed in the Reps who broke ranks, especially Kelly Ayotte and Susan Collins. Never mind Tom Cotton. WOW. How can this be??

      And speaking of, interesting, wasn’t it, that the Pope chose to focus on the Death penalty rather than abortion in his comments?

    • helenk3 Says:

      White House: President would veto short-term government spending bill that would defund Planned Parenthood – @TPM

      did they just give the Pope the finger?

      • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

        So it would seem…

      • kenoshamarge Says:

        Of course they did. Petty little Obama likes nothing better than to poke his finger in the eye of those that dare to disagree with him. Remember when the tapes first came out? He immediately rushed to get a million dollars to Planned Parenthood. He’s a petty, evil little man.

  16. helenk3 Says:

    because i need a break too

  17. helenk3 Says:

    if God forbid trump is elected he will spend more time on petty BS about insults to himself than working for the country

    • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

      Are you KIDDING me with this?!?! Good GRIEF, what a petulant man!! He is a child. Just SMH. And you are right, Helen – he would be tilting at windmills on a regular basis…

    • kenoshamarge Says:

      I didn’t think any grown man could be a bigger whiner than Obama. I was wrong. Trump has the same giant ego, is a narcissist but he whines more. Unbelievable.

  18. kenoshamarge Says:

    IMO, Trump does have a point about this:

    • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

      I agree, especially since it looks like that guy was a plant. But still – people aren’t responsible for questions asked of them…

  19. kenoshamarge Says:

    Isn’t it amazing that the same State Department that couldn’t rescue a few Americans at Benghazi not says it will rescue 200,000 refugees? Just an observation.

  20. kenoshamarge Says:

  21. helenk3 Says:

    this a very sad but true article
    the Thorn Bird Nation

    • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

      It is sad – our educational system is letting us down for starters (not teaching history), and it goes downhill from there…

  22. helenk3 Says:

    a friend sent me this on facebook.
    it is a must read

    • Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy Says:

      It is scary – Obama has “retired” a number of very high ranking officers – those who don’t agree with him, as Carly Fiorina said. It is disturbing indeed…

  23. helenk3 Says:

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )


Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: